Class- What is the war about?
Mariah: I think it is possible the war is a small uprising wtihin the United States that they have to control and break down.
Mariah,America is at war now. I think this is included in the book to show that people are oblivious to the outside world.
Mariah: It never says. I think it might be part of censorship. It also says that they think this will be a short war so that could lead us to believe that the war isn't even real.
Mariah- Nobody in the book so far has talked about the what the war is about. A big debate we were talking about a few days ago was if that war is actually real or just a distractio made by the government?
Class: Why do you think Beatty wanted to die?
Mariah- I think that the war is just a method used to scare people into compliance. Also the constant referring to it as "the war" makes me think that it is actually many small unrelated or staged battles.
Class: What did the dream that Beatty had symbolize?
Class,When Montag kills Beatty, Beatty doesn't resist. Montag said he wanted to die. How do you interpret this? Did he want to die?
Mariah:It's not sepcified, however, it implies it might be for the TV companies to put something interesting on the air. The book makes it appear that the war is waged for viewing audiences.
Whitney-The same reason Mildred wantd to die. Life is more of a chore for them, not a gift, and all they do every day is go through the motions
Class- Why did Montag need Faber's dirty old clothes?
Whitney- Yes I believe Beatty wanted to die. If he didn't, like montag was saying, he would have run away or a tleast tried to save himself.
Whitney: I think that Beatty just wanted to prove that Montag had lost it and is not normal. He would be arrested and taken out of the society. I also think Beatty knew Montag was thinking a lot about the government and Beatty needed to stop it so he thought he needed to die for this "noble" cause.
Anna: I agree but why do you think he wanted to die?
Mariah - I think that there is no war, but the war is actually the people being stripped of their knowledge. The author never specifies what the war is really about. Everyone has a different interpretaion.
Whitney,Sorry to repeat your question. I think that Beatty did want to die. Beatty knew about books and their history. He may have liked books, but not wanted to speak out against the government. He wanted release from that imprisonment.
Whitney- I think that Beatty wanted to die becuase he was silently intelligent and was suffering in the dumb society he lived in.
Whitney: I think he had seen everything and learned everything and did not object because he had nothing new to experience.
James:He needed them to throw off the scent of the mechanical hound and get a chance to get away.
Class- How did Beatty discover that Montag was a "traitor?"
Whitney--I don't think Beatty wanted to die. I think he was too cocky to recognize how serious Montag was about killing him, but Montag may have made himself believe Beatty wanted to die to ease some of his guilt.
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Karyn and Whitney> I think that Beatty secretly wants a revolution. He agrees with Montag (look at his dream), and he decides to die rather than choose a side.
Karyn- I think the dream Beatty had is that Montag will never be able to outwit Beatty no matter how much he read.
James: It would throw off the scent of the mechanical hound. Montag wanted the scent trail to stop at Faber's house.
Whitney- In your post responding to Mariah's question you said the war was a small uprising in the U.S. How could that be if the war seems to be going on for a long time?
Kendall-He knew from the beginning, when Guy's wife tried to grab it.
James- I think he needed the old clothes to hide in plain sight, to blend in with the other people because firemen are feared and it seems that people talk more willingly to a normal person than a fireman.
Kendall,Montag wasn't very good at hiding it. When he went to his house, Montag was distracted and nervous. He also was hesitant to commit to come back to work. Beatty may also just be good at reading people.
Kendall- Mildred turned in the alarm.
Kendall: Beatty sent the mechanical hound to Montag's house and Mildred and her friends called in a silent alarm.
James- Montag need the dirty cloths to throw the search for him off by throwing the new mechanical hound off track, it's just like crossing through a river to try and lose your scent.
Inner Circle-their conversation is great. Beatty (Spelling Fail?) was the most important character in the book because he nderstood how society was working and what would become of the world if books were released today.
James,Then why did he wait to arrest Montag and burn his house? Why was Montag's case different?
Class: What do you think Beatty death by fire symbolizes? How did you interpret it?
Nick: I think that is a good point but how would dying help start a revolution?
Whitney- Beatty wanted to die like Carl said because their life was not worth living the way that they were living. There was no joy of living the way they were. They had nothing to look forward to each day. Also he was against everything that was going on in their society and he didn’t want to be there to see what was going to happen later on.
Matthew and Whitney - I think Beatty tried to change Montag through the end. He knew that if he caused Montag to go insane, then he wouldn't have to worry about hurting Montag himself. Beatty probably didn't want to die, but becuase he couldn't think any other way, Beatty didn't know what to do.
Class> Why did Mildred give up the 3 screens and her family in order to get Montag arrested; she may not get arrested, but she would lose literally everything. She doesn't have a job, a supporter, or any belongings now!
Kendall- The women that were at Montag's house visiting Mildred first called in an alarm which Beatty ignored and then Mildred herself called in the alarm.
Lauren,He died by what he was doing, what was "helping" society. So, society may be working its own destruction. When you think about it, the rising generation is brainwashed and killing itself. How will they run things like law enforcement and this war that has broken out?
Matthew- Because before Montag revolted, he was still one of the fireman and probably good friends with those he worked with.
Matthew- I think his case is different because he is a fireman gone crazy. He is still seen as a friend in his eyes.
Lauren - Beatty was the lead firemen, the "salamander." He represented fire and by dying that way, everyone was lost. Montag knocked down an obstacle that could have caused him his life.
James and Avery,Will the same thing happen with Mr. Black's house?
Matthew: Yeah, I agree! And I think that they leave robots to do their dirty work which has created a less interactive or independent society which could result in a major downfall.
Whitney- Beatty was wanting to die but I think he didn't actually think that Montag would actually kill one of his 'friends'. When Beatty saw Montag make his move on the fire nozzel, he just showed suprise. I definatly would have jumped away from the murderous mad man that was about to ignite me.
Lauren- I believe that Beatty’s death symbolized that that is how everyone might die. That might be how society ends. Maybe a fire, like in Lord of the Flies will cleanse the nation of all evil and it will be the beginning of a new society.
Nick:She felt a intimidated my Montag because he actually wanted to talk to her and not just watch TV. The deep questions he asked made her a afraid and didn't want to live like that. This is pathetic because the questions were simple and she should have been able to answer them.
Lauren,Now we are back to the discussion of humanity being reliant on technology.
Class- On page 116, the book says that Montag had "lived here in an empty house with a strange women who would forget him tommorow" should that be taken literally?
Nick S.--I think she knew that if she turned her husband in, she would be able to avoid arrest and find a new husband to support her and buy her new parlor walls.
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Matthew- Humans are reliant on technology because without computers then working on our Macbeth essays would have been harder.
Class- Why did Mildred turn Montag in? She didn't gain anything by turning him in, so why did she bother?
Class- What do you think is the significance of the second hound being deployed to go after Montag as soon as the first one was destroyed?
Matthew:But isn't that the major point? The author is trying to warn future generations from creating a system based off of technology that would destroy itself in the end and create a lesser humanity.
Lauren- Also Beatty’s character might have been like Simon’s character. He could have been the Jesus figure. His death could have been the spark that leads to revolution.
Mariah,Some of it is literal. He did live in a house, and Mildred will probably forget about him, like her friend did. But, the house being empty is not literal. It could mean that there is not real life in the house, just the fake, "zombie" life their society lives.
Mariah- I think that it should be taken litterally if not just a little bit exaggerated. In the section before that with the women who are vistiting mildred, one of the women has had four husbands all of whom less important than the last.
Matthew- I think Mr. Black's house will be burned for the reason of guilt by association.
Mariah - Yes. As said ealier in the book, Montag and Mildred didn't remember how they met or when. If the authority in this world programs people to have no feeling, then Montag is the rare exception who will not forget her. Mildred symbolizes the average citizen that is clueless and dependent on everyone else.
Mariah- I think that is literally true because if Mildred forgot about how they met, and the event when she took all the sleeping pills, then she could forget about her husband.
Nick S - The books were more important to Mildred than her parlor walls. She had to destroy the books so they couldn't get to her. She wanted to have her walls and nothing else.
Kendall: Mildred was brainwashed and figures that was right, this is all she has been taught for her whole life and her husband is now going against all of that.
Lauren,That concept was in one of the books I read over the summer, One Second After. In it, all modern technology is destroyed in the U.S. So, society breaks down, and the highest survival rate after a year is only 50%. So, we should be careful.
Mariah- Yes, I think the paragraph on page 116 should be taken literally. Mildred was truly a strange woman to Montag, they did not love or even care about each other. Mildred will probably have forgotten all about Montag in a few short weeks.
Kendall: She hated the books and she can't think for herself. When the government says turn in people who have books it doesn't matter who the people are Mildred will turn them in because the good-looking president wants her to. For her the worst thing is that she lost her three tv walls. She doesn't care about Montag at all. If she did care she wouldn't have turned her husband in.
Kendall- I think that Mildred turned him in because she could stand with what she believed was nonsense in the sense of all of the talk about book. Even though her "family" would be destroyed, she figured that she would have her life to lose also if she was found later with books.
Lauren- I think Beatty's death by fire symbolizes the beginning of something new, like a phonix, because as he, the old system, begins to die, it allows a path for a new form of government, and of learning, to be born.
Nick M- the significance of the second hound being deployed right after the frist one "perishing" would be the fact that Montag is still out running around creating unease about the community, so the police need something to track him with.
Class: Why are the firetrucks called salamanders?
Class- It is possible to forget stuff http://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20070712/brains-memory-suppression-probed This is a link I posted on the suppression of memory.
Class- Where did Mildred go after she pulled the alarm? Is it significant that she leaves right after she betrays him?
Avery- How is Mr. Black guilty by association if it was Montag himself that planted the books inside of his house?
Karyn-It's because, in the old days, people thought that salamaders saught out fire, and tried to be in it. Firetrucks, if you think about it, do the exact same thing; They seek out fire.
Karyn,Salamanders were said to come from fire. So, the fire trucks come from the fire, or "chaos", that has broken loose in society.
Class- At the end of this chapter Montag and Faber were disscussing their plan of action. With Montag heading to the hills, and faber to tehe retired printer. Do you think between the two of them that they will be able to round up a large group of rebels?
Karyn-Because they bring the fire to places and salamanders are "born out of fire".
Mariah- I thought that the hounds being deployed meant that technology is relentless and will try to track down Montag without rest as soon as he challenged the system.
Logan- I agree with what you’re saying I do believe that this should be taken more literally than not. I believe this because Mildred never really loved Montag they were never really fit for each other I thought and so she could easily leave him fir something else. The only reason why she kept him around was to provide for her and to buy her technology.
Kendall - She could've run to avoid her emotions, because it would've been too much for her if Montag came. Unlikely, but possible nonetheless.
Kendall- I think that Tthey took Mildred away just like they do with the others who have books in their houses, but probably to a different place becuase she herself wasn't guilty of reading them.
Kendall: Mildred probably went to be relocated because her house will soon be burned and she won't harmed because she turned in the books. All of the people who have books are taken away after to go to prison. I feel it is somewhat significant because she doesn't even look at him when he comes to burn his house.
Mariah- Because he was associated with the books and they were Montage's so the "cops" assumed that he was holding the books for Montage.
Kendall- I believe that Mildred leaving right after she betrays Montag allows her to feel as little gulit as possible, and not see the results of her betrayal.
Sage-That's not true. Mildred was completly dependant on Guy. She couldn't function without him.They married eachother for a reason, 10 years ago. They had reasons back then, they just can't remember them.
Avery: But if they go towards a fire how are they born out of fire?
Anna,This scenario reminds me of Star Wars. Luke comes from a small town (or planet) and joins up with an already existing rebellion. He quickly takes charge and leads them to victory. Montag may be the Luke of his world. The "Rebels" just need a strong leader to push them forward.
Mariah- how would they people that took her away know that she didn’t read the books how could they prove that and in a sense she did because Montag was reading to her wasn’t he?
Greg- Mildred is more focused though on how the family disappeared, as she was mumbling on her way to the car.
Anna- Montag actually planned on heading down to the river and then crossing it. Then he would follow the railroad tracks until he found a band of literary refugees.
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/arnold/writings/doverbeach.htmlClass- This is the address to a copy of the poem "Dover Beach" which montag read a part of to the women in 451
Nick M- That is a way to interperate the sympolism, but the reason for having the hound there in the story is to track Montag down and isolate him before he becomes an even bigger threat.
James- Okay, guess I missed that part, I still think that she didn't want to feel much guilt at the same time though.
Karyn- As Ross said they also seek out fire, which I assume, thats where they laid their eggs.
Karyn,Some animals feel a connection to where they are born. For example, sea turtles return to their nesting ground to nest. So, the salamanders feel more comfortable around fire. But, when one is comfortable, it is easier to get burned.
Matthew: Going along with your analogy, Luke can think for himself and isn't that scared just wants to do something to help. Montag is so scared and doens't understand some readings. How can Montag push the rebellion through if he is scared and doesn't understand most things in his world?
Matthew, That's a really good connection, I never realized that! Do you think with a strong leader that the rebellion will be able to succeed and recreated a better society?
Avery-Salamanders don't lay their eggs in fire. They don't even like fire.That's just an old saying.
Ross- This is true that she was dependent upon him. I phrased that wrong. I just mean that they need each other to function and live their lives but it doesn’t seem like they love each other they don’t act like they are in love.
How many of you have ever seen the movie Wag the Dog? It is an older movie, but relevant. Also, make sure you read the whole poem "Dover Beach." Why did Bradbury pick that poem out of all the poems he could pick? Why would he use the Bible as well? Out of everything he could pick, why those?
Mariah- The other Hound being deployed is more of a show for the other citizens, all society cares about is entertainment, like burning fires and the "family".
Mattew+Kayrn- If Montag can find a good reason to fight, something that makes most, if not everything clear, then I belive Montag will be able to push through the rebellion sucessfully.
Logan,Why would Bradbury choose this poem for Montag to read?
Karyn- Luke started out being a skeptic of the force, then he quickly adopted the idea, Montage just hasn't passed that point.
Anna: I do not think that Montag and Faber will end up creating a revolution because no one will want to join them. Especially because now that Faber is a "fugitive".
Sage-Does EVERY married couple today always show complete and utter love for their spouse?
Class- Regarding the inner circle's discussion, why would people in a society become so detatched if their past was built off of connections between different people and relations between businesses and other businesses. do you think that this could happpen to our society if we keep leading lifes of debt, corupption, and poor education.
Sage- Thanks, I agree as well that Mildred would really easily be able to move on to a new breadwinner.
Ross- I was just going along with the ideas of the times.
Karyn,He will do what Luke did when he didn't understand. He will find a Yoda (Faber) to help him through But, will Montag loose Faber as Luke did Yoda?
Sage- Mildred is completely dense, so even though she did read parts of the books, she probably would've forgotten all about what they said and in her need to be normal and fit in, they would probably give her a little wiggle room if they did find out that she read them because she was the one that "alarmed" the fire department.
Lauren- I think that if there are enough people to support the new system of government, then there will be enought people to pull though, start over, and recreate the system. Probably a lot of people like Montag, and Faber.
Karyn and Mariah- That makes sense, but who would relocate her? The government? Why would they bother?
Mitch,Even today, we are loosing connections to people. Communicating with technology weakens these connections of friendship and trust. Instead of talking to a person, you are talking to letters on a screen, which are easier to betray or forget.
Logan- do you see the conversation that Ross and I are having what are your opinions on this
Anna: I mean now that Montag is a fugitive.
Mrs. Smith- I think that Bradbury used "Dover Beach" because it references how once the beach was full of goodness, but now it has turned sour and the water dirty. Also, he probably chose the Bible because it is the world's number one bestseller and has the most controversial issues about it throughout all time.
Matthew- But remember Faber couldnt be Yoda because Luke has one other master first, Obi-Wan Kinobi( misspeled), so further on there must be more intelligent people to help Montag more than Faber.
Whitney- So just because Montag is a fugitive, you think that people will not want to join him? What about all the old english and literature professors that Faber was talking about? They live a 'hobo/fugative' life too.
Kendall,I think that Mildred never really wanted to read the books. I think she did it because she was afraid of Montag. Once he was gone, she was free to incinerate the books and pull the alarm.
Greg- I don't think they would relocate Mildred. The witness protection program only move people when their lives are endangered.
Ross- Years ago, in the 1900's and before, Wives were supposed to support their husbands and provide children, while the father had to support the family, rather than the couple loving each other.
Class--Bradbury lingered on the boulevard for a while. What is the boulevard symbolizing?
Greg-This isn't the 1900s. It's 500 years into the future.
James,That is true. Will he also have other comrades along the way? With support, it is easier to challenge the system, so it would be in Montag's best interest.
Kendall- They wouldn't have anything else to do with her, other than kill her, which would be totally inhumane.
Sage- I think that the idea of love is something that we currently value in marriages and societally judge as a reason to marry. In the future this may be different, but when we read the book with the context of American marriages containing love we see their marriages as broken shells of relationships
Megan,The boulevard could be Montag's final push over to the opposing side. In this case, he made it over to the "rebellion".
Anna/Whitney- Montag being a fugitive, there will be other fugitives willing to join him, but the general population will not, as they are intimidated by the government.
Megan- I think that the boulavard symbolized danger. This is because Montag was challenging the system and living on the edge.