Class: Why do you think books were being burned and were a crime to have?
Class - Ray Bradbury has an interesting style of writing. What makes his style different from others? Was it easy or hard to read?
class-Why would "Hound" be capitilized?
I think Montag was brainwashed and was happy until his eyes were opened.
Class-Does anyone notice the simalarities between Clarisse (her personality/lifestyle) and 'The Pedestrian'?
Whitney-The government has eliminated imagination in society. This may be because they don't want any uprising or revolts.
Whitney: i think it was because government was afraid that if people were able to read books then they would become more educated and able to think and feel that they were not living the way they want
Class- with his current life I think that Montag is not happy. He is not living life, he moves around like a robot until Clarisse wakes Guy up.
Whitney Maybe because almost like Harris Bergeron, people were offended by books so then books were stereotyped as bad and were destroyed so everybody felt like they fit in.
Whitney: I think that books were being burned because people became scared of the the power of the freedom of speech. Book are one of the most powerful forms of this freedom.
Class - What is the significance of the number "451"? In the reading Montag was talking to Clarisse and asked her "Well doesn't this mean anything to you?" (Bradbury 8). Is it just a symbol for firemen?
Vivian: I think that his style of writing is hard to describe. He keeps the readers in the dark and doesn't give a lot away. I found the actually reading easy, but the ideas difficult to comprehend.
Anna,Both of them like walking, and both do not hold much respect for the law. The Pedestrian is arrested, and Clarisse talks freely about her uncle breaking the law.
Whitney- Books symboloize knowledge, and in the book's world knowledge is a problem. I think the government limits the books they want citizens to read so the citizens don't remember what it was like in the past.
Vivian- I think it was hard to read and a very mature way to write.
Whitney> Books spread information and promote imagination. They provide information. And information, in the wrong or right hands, can be very, very dangerous. For example- Terroists+ Location of nuclear missle sites = dangerous. This can be traced as far back as the forbidden fruit of Eden. This information of evil corrupted mankind forever.
Anna- I noticed the similarities between those two characters as well. Apart from just taking walks they both seem to be watching things happen not actually acting.
Kimberly,I like how you said she wakes Guy up. Good symbolism.
vivian: id have to agree with what whitney said, he doesn't give really anything away but when he does it usually is important and a big factor on how the writing goes
Class- I also agree with Kimberly, very few people, even nowadays don't ask themselves if they are truly happy until something prompts them to.
Kimberly- Guy is starting to look at life through Clarisse's eyes. This is changing his life and he is counting how many days he has seen her.
Abby- On my book it says "Farenheit 451...the temperature at which books burn."
Emily- I think "Hound" is capitalized because robots are considered as important as human beings, and their importance is showed by capitalizing the word.
Yeah, what Mitch said.
Whitney- I believe the government felt that they would not be able to keep control of the people if they were allowed to have their own ideas, or see how things were done in the past. Ex: History books talk about our revolutions/wars, and that might give the people a reason to lash out at the government.
Matthew- Those were some of the same similarities I thought of. Do you feel that since the have commited these supposed 'crimes' that it makes them criminal?
Anna - Yeah I do. She even mentioned the word pedestrian when talking to Montag, though I don't remember who she was talking about.
Class-Why does Bradbury italisize so many words?
Abby- The number 451 is the temperature that books burn and that number symbolizes for the firemen that they will burn books.
VivianBradbury is different from other authors in the sense that he uses a lot of repition and over describing, possibly to emphasize foreshadowing or symbolism. It is very hard to read because you either understand why Bradbury repeated that word or you don't.
Whitney - Since this is a futuristic novel, books probably weren’t needed anymore. Because many authors have different views on certain subjects, the government wanted to prevent outbreaks and arguments, so that they can keep the peace.
Jonathan - Okay thanks!
Anna-I saw some connections. I noticed that both characters were not trying to actively/openly object to the current system, but naturally think freely because that's the way they feel is right.
Class,We have all been talking (or typing) about Clarisse changing Guy. Could Guy affect Clarisse later in the book? Would it be better or worse?
Jonathan- I think he is trying to bring the word to our attention
Class- Is it good to challenge all the systems? What about Clarrise's system? Should Montag challenge that?
Logan- I agree. How do you think these kinds of people have an impact of society? If it came down to it do you think they would try and change society for the better?
Kimberly- In my opinion, Guy was just living life simply. Refering back to my forbidden fruit reference, he didn't realize what was on the other side of life, rather than just happy conformity and enjoyment of fire. He didn't even realize what he was burning!
Class- What happened to Mildred?
Emily- but he uses it so much, and I think that diminishes the affect of bringing attention to the word.
Class - So I have another question. What is the salamander on Montag's arm? It is what lights the fire? Is the salamander connected to him?
Anna,Being a criminal does not just mean breaking the law. They are holding true to their beliefs, so they are not in my eyes criminals in the least.
Matthew- I dont think Guy could change Clarisse because she is an independent mind and a teenager. Tennagers prefer being free.
Class- Why was Mildred's over dose put into the book? What is the importance of it?
Kendall- She overdosed on sleeping pills, and the two men had to come and revive her.
Abby- A salamander has long represented fire. People used to think that they were born of fire when they threw logs on a fire and they came scampering out. The salamander is a child of fire, an elemental symbol.
Stephen- Montag shouldn't challenge Clarisse's system, Clarisse should challenge Montag's system. She has a system of thinking, of knowledge, of freedom, while Montag goes along with the flow of burning books.
MathewI think he definitely will influence Clarisse if even just because she is so naive and innocent that he will take advantage of that to get her to beleive in the governments point of view. Depending on the perspective you look at it from it could be good or bad. If you are a fireman or government worker then you will like the new Clarisse but if you are someone who thinks book burning needs to stop you won't like it.
Emily,The sleeping pills show how much people have become reliant on technology. Even Guy has to take a sleeping pill to go to sleep.
Emily- She did it because life was not worth living to her anymore, she didn't want to go on, so she tried to commit sucide.
Emily-I think in a way it was placed in order to set up the character of Guy Montag. It shows how little these dramatic events effect him, and how blindly he trusts the system and that everything will be alright.
Abby- the salamander is a symbol. In ancient myths salamander were a mythical creature that would live and enjoy fire. So the firemen were the salamander to symbolize that they love the trill fire gives them.
Anna - Good questions to Logan. I think that these people, this generation has been drilled into thinking the same. Of course Clarisse could be the insane seventeen year old that causes everyone to revolt becuase she see behind the goverment.
Emily- Her overdose could be the result of her drab life she lives along with many others who are trying to overdose as well.
JonathanI totally agree, Clarisse brings a new perspective to guy and if he can understand maybe others can.
Ian,I see your point. You have split the society into two halves, though. Those against burning books, and firemen and other government officials. Guy, however, is both a fireman and is beginning to see the wrong in burning books. Could he be the mediator that brings the two sides to an agreement?
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Kendall - I believe Mildred tried to commit suicide. Montag kicked an empty bottle of sleep pills and the men came to pump the fluids out of her system. I thought it was weird that she didn't remember doing this later on when he metioned it to her.
Abby- Yes as Nick said the salamander is a symbol of fire but it was born of fire and enjoys it. I think this highlights the difference between our current firemen and the firemen in this book.
Class- I feel like Clarisse is going to be the Messiah of the book. She's going to be the one who persuades people to CTS.
Ian and Jonathan,Sounds like a revolt could be brewing...
GregWhy was life not worth it anymore, did something tramatic happen do you think? Or did she just get broken down by opression?
Logan- How is it that salamanders are born of fire?
Abby- Maybe she did remember, but was trying to hide it from Montag because of embarrassment?
Kimberly - Okay thanks. So is the Salamander on their arm? Is it where the kerosene comes out to light the fires?
Class- What is the significance of all firemen looking similar(page 33)?
Jonathan,What's CTS mean?
Vivian- So lets say hypothetically she does try to overthrow the government. With the kinds of technology and precautions this society seems to have, how do you suspect she will go about doing this?
Matthew- I don't believe that he could be the mediator that brings te two sides to an agreement, because both of the sides are so extreme, it would take a long time to find any common ground.
MathewI think it is very possible that Guy is either the mediator or the spark to an uprising.
Torri - Yeah I was thinking about that too. Could it also be a possibility that she's brainwashed? When the men were talking about how this happens often, what if they put something in the treatment that makes them forget what they did to prevent it from happening again?
Abby- She probably didn't remember because she took so many pills, or because she got her blood pumped out of her so there was a time where there was no oxygen getting to her brain.
Class- I have noticed a lot of symbolism in this book. Clarisse is used with the word white a lot because she is pure and innocent. Also the books are described at birds which are innocent creatures. Also birds were used to carry messages which is what books do.
class- what woud happen if books were burned today?
Kendall,The firemen looking the same is like the stormtroopers in Star Wars. In that, them clones are bad and not individuals. It is also like the Borg in Star Trek, the Next Generation (a half-human half-machine race that functions as a whole and give up individuallity). This makes them much more deadly, but also more vulnerable.
Matthew- Challenge the System...
Kendall- I think the significance of firemen looking the same is that there is no uniqueness in that world.
Kendall - I think the significance is the government choosing who gets what occupation. They have to have certain qualifications in order to have that job.
James-Heres a URL for a page describing the myth of salamanders: http://www.dragonorama.com/creatures/salamander/index.html I am not sure of the specifics but they are a symbol of fire which is the main goal of the salamander reference.
Class> Clarisse always said that she was seventeen and insane. She seemed, honestly, perfectly happy until she met Guy. His parochial mindset made her realize that firemen were people, and people who were just as ignorant as everyone else. This conversation made her feel sad, it seems. But it also seems that people, at very least Guy, where not at all hopeless, like just one spark in a mass of hydrogen that would ignite the whole reaction. This spark could bring down the system.
KendallI think Branbury put that in there to symbolize the similarity of all society and the uniformity.
Abby- That makes a lot of sense! But who would give them the authority to do that, and why?
Jonathan- Stick it to the man...
Ian-I agree that Guy is the spark of something new, but I believe that he represents more of a newer, broader, overall idea then a single man who believes in something different.
Mitch - We would become uneducated homo sapiens that don't understand the importance of books. Almost everything is online, however books cause people to think and question.Class - If books were burned in today's society, what would happen to authors? Also, along with Mitch's question, how do you think did books become a thing of the past? It couldn't have only been technology.
Ian- I think that she tried to kill herself because she was broken down by depression, because once you get depressed you fall into a hole that gets deeper and deeper, and eventually you can't get out, she was not too deep this time though...
Mitch- If people started burning all the books in our current state of society, it wouldn't been completely detrimental. Most of our modern day books and religious text can be found online, so there would still be complete access to them.
Abby- that is a good idea, I hadn't thought of it that way, and I think it could be possible, but how could they think that Montag wouldn't tell her? Wouldn't that diminish the purpose of the treatment?
Mitch: I think that if books started being burned and outlawed, there would be a revolution. Many races have books that they hold sacred and they would be angry if someone disrespected their culture like that. People today still largely rely on written text, but maybe only 20 years from now that will change drastically.
Class- I think it's interesting how the citizens never say "firefighters" like we sometimes do, they just say "firemen."
vivian- most people go by humans but thats fine too
Mitch,If books were burned today, there would be a lot of resistance. I know I would hide some books in my attic (don't rat me out if it actually happens :-P). However, it could eventually take control as people grow closer to electronics. We even have electronic books.
Class - Why were the firefighters afraid when the old woman took out an ordinary kitchen match? The book says that "the sight of it rushed the men out and down away from the house." Why would that be???
MitchI think it would not have as much of an impact as it would before technology but I do think that once books are gone people would realise how much everything relied on the basis of books and old school techniques.
vivian- Authors would be no more. Like in the Pedestrian, when the man told the polic car that his profession was a writer the polic car responded that that was not a profession.
Anna: I think that you make a good point by saying that there is a lot of online text, but online text can be easily edited. So if everything has been changed online, how can we be sure what we are reading is right?
Vivian- Uneducate homosapiens? Ummmmm... I don't really think that is in our near future.... I mean we are sending men to space and all.... Knowledge doesn't exactly just disappear.
Abby,The firemen are covered in kerosine, as they always smell of it. This means they would easily burn, which is not desirable.
Class- Is the Uncle the man in Ray Bradbury's short story, The Pedestrian? If he is then how did he leave the mental institute?
Anna-I agree that many texts are found online, but I think that many people would see it not just as burning paper with words, but rather the idea of destroying knowledge and tradition.
Sean- I don't think Guy is the spark of something new, Clarisse is. I think Guy is the fire, Clarisse is the spark.
Torri - That's true too. It's so confusing to me because their way of life is very confusing as well. But maybe their memory isn't so great either. Don't you think it was strange how Montag and Mildred couldn't even remember when or how they met?
Greg What might have started the depression?Or was it a combination of many things piling on top of each other?
There are some really good questions Megan is asking about who is in control? Who is deciding that society is this way? Why aren't you coming in to the inner circle to discuss? Get those legs moving!
Abby- the house was covered in kerosene and if the women lit the full with the firemen inside they would all go up in flame.
Abby- Because there was kerosine every where and if you light a match, then a big fire would happen.
Matthew- id have to agree this book is sort of telling us that our reliance on technology will oneday be the new starters of wars and anything that could ruin a society. if you look at leaders in the world today, they aren't business men who work hard to help with problems in society, they are people who are mking technology that are used for our own personal enjoyment
Anna- are there circumstances that could force the knowledge out of people? Similar to the headsets in Harrison Bergeron?
James- I do not think that the uncle is the same man in The Pedestrian. They are two entirely unrelated stories.
Vivian-If this is satire then maybe burning the books is the same as what we are doing by using computers. The use of computers renders book obsolete so they may as well be burned. However, I think the idea of an author will persevere throughout any of the medias people go through
Torri,The dandelion also said that he doesn't love her. Could this be true? He did seem concerned about her "near death" experiance.
Jonathan - I think that's a really good anlogy to the text. Because Clarisse was the one who set the idea in his mind that he isn't happy, and his mind started to wander and wonder why things were how they were.
Technology is not always bad. The technology they have can be good but everything needs to be taken in moderation. TV can be good, but too much can make you bland and fat. The radioes they have, again, but all in moderation.
Whitney- That is a very good point, I didn't think about it like that. Yet, how can we truly know that just because something is published in a book it is right either?
VivianI think authors would not entirely dissapear but they would probably go by a different name and would not classify themselves as authors, and try to publish things secretly.
Kendall- But there might be a connection because she said " he was arrested for being a pedestrian."
Anna - Yes, I agree. However, think about how much false information the internet and media produce. Books cause people to use their imagination and that is what led to discovering space and improving technology.....our imagination. Knowledge doesn't disappear, but books would and no one would know if what the internet said was true.
Ms. Smith,I think the techonlogy giants are in control. This patterns after the industrial revolution, when giants such as Carnegie and Hurtz were really in control, no matter what the government said. However, the government may have joined big business in 451, which is extra deadly.
Anna: I understand what you mean and I do agree that you shouldn't believe everything you read without verifying it. Although I do think it holds a lot of value in publishing a hard copy of imformation because then you have to cite where your imformation came from and also prove how it is true.
Torri- I feel like there could be circumstances that do take knowledge away. Also, I feel like if those people who were most knowlegdeable would see it coming and understand how to stand up for their rights and lead the rest of the world into being able to do so as well.
Class- With the general population the firemen are the ones in charge. They cause fear and make people follow the rules. However a number of times the characters hear planes flying over head almost as iff outside the town there is a war going on. These means the government has some power to control an army with.
James- You're right!! Both stories are written by the same author. Good question.
Ian- I think it was a series of things piling up on each other. When you make a really messed up decision, you can feel guilty or down on yourself because of it. When you don't have anything that gives you reason to keep on living. Friends/family, sports, activities, ect.Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(mood)
Stephen- I like how you say technology is good in moderation. The problem is, we aren't using it in moderation. I think it's impossible for us to limit our advances in technology until something bad happens to us because of technology. It's hard for humans to just stop putting their ideas into affect. That's what makes us special.
Government can be good if it is used properly and has checks on it that can't be removed. The flow of information is not hindered at all but increased through the Tv. However, the type of information is whats questionable.
Kendall/James> Also, when he was asked his occupation, he said he was an author, so the police man took it down as no job. Also, TV, a very mind-controlling device, was expected in all households. He clearly thought differently than the others, too. And the government has scared the people good into 1 police car.
Matthew- I think the goverment is part of 451 or 451 part of government because they burn books according to what they censor.
vivian i understand your point but technology that makes our lives easier is pretty much at an end. Technology that is being produced today is used for only the person who owns that item. that is a premise that could be conttriversial because an improvement in technology now would be something that people don't want to do creating a lazy generation.
Class,Clarisse mentions that kids kill each other. Is this literal, symbolic, or both?
Matthew- I think that Montag probably has a different interpretation of love than we do. He may say that he loves her, but that could mean something completely different to him compared to what it could mean to someone like Clarrise.
Middle group,Is this being "reborn" through fire, or is it being scourged by fire?
Kimberly- It also says while he was watching TV that there nation was hours away from war.
JonathanI totally agree it would take a very big disaster or a series of bad experiences for society to see the negatives of technology and start to think more critically.
Matthew: Although this is a disturbing thought, I think that it is not only symbolic but also literal that the kids are killing eachother. I think that is it very possible that this is what the world will come to one day. Just like in Lord of the Flies, kids are not always innocent.
Vivian- Like I said to Whit, how do we know if what we are now reading in books and other printed texts is true? Just because it has been printed on paper? Also if what you are saying is that imagination stimulates the brain, then does it even matter if everything we are reading online is true?Whitney- That is very true. Yet, online resources nowadays are respected as just as great sources as a printed out copy. The only difference is the use of paper... (which will hopefully be recycled, so we can save our earth)!
Mitch - Okay I see your point. Thanks!
Middle Group,Fire can also mean life. We need heat, cooked meat, abd light. For example, in Macbeth, Banquo had a torch when he died, and this fire represented hope. 451 has shown that the government has corrupted fire. Does this mean they have also corrupted life?
AnnaBut do all people trust technology equally? Or are some people using technology just because of the pressures of society?
Matthew- I think the kids killing eachother is more literall than symbolic. Look at the world they are living in, it seems so different, and I think some of the kids probably realize what the old world was like.
Whitney- I don't understand why people even think that kids are innocent. We are evil in oue own ways from the very beginning. When in pre-school, you didn't want to share your toys, that was bad and not very innocent because you hurt the other kid.
Whitney,I hope the world never comes to that, at least while there are still sane people to see the wrong in it.
Anna - So true....However, it does matter if what we read is true because then everyone would be educated instead of so many different points of view that it causes dagerous arguments in society.
Stephen- People see kids as innocent in comparison to adults. The cruelty of kids is much less extreme than the cruelty of adults.
Stephen,Kids are considered innocent because they are ignorant. Maybe not teenagers as much, but little kids don't know what's bad and what's wrong. Little kids haven't learned to share their toys.
Kendall,Kids can't do as much damage as adults, so their actions are seen as less drastic.
Matthew: I agree with you and I hope that it NEVER comes to that, but what if war begins to tear the world apart. Do you think that we will end up living in a world parellel to F 451?
Stephen- I agree with you, if we didn't grow up with other adults to tell us to share and respect and stuff like that, we would not be a pleasant nation. Kids are like cavemen when they grow up, but they, like cavemen, evolve into more civilized people.
Ian- Good point! I'm not really sure, I understand what you're saying. Like my grandparents don't like computers because they think everything is just a bunch of teenagers making things up. Yet, I see that it's a good resource. I think that there is currently and equal amount of both. But what will it be like when our generation grows older and we are the grandparents. Will we be a society completely relient on technology without a dodubt?
Jonathan- I disagree. I think the kids are actually killing each other. There society tells them that speeding and guns is a good thing. And death is just a common as a program on the parlor wall.
Stephen-I agree, in the idea that all people from birth possess a certain "evil", but it stems and takes different forms as one ages. In LOF, the point I see is that the evil has flourished into something terrible via the island, and that Golding is making a point that this is an evil that is existent in many people today.
MathewI agree there is also the excuse "they didn't know better" but in truth kids know whats going on and they learn how to play the system very early.
Whitney - Would the parallel world be the world we live in today?
Whitney- No, i don't think our world would ever come to that. Someone would realize what was going on before it was too late.
Kendall- the cruelty of kids just as evil as adults in their own ways. We commit just as atrocious acts to one another as adults do to each other. That toy that the pre-schooler wanted was very important to him and at that age, we are very manipulatable. He wouls probaly remember that the rest of his life; I know I do.
Middle group,Can the government really censor our thoughts, or are those our last place of retreat when all else is lost?
Whitney: There are actually cases today where children have been found guilty of murder. For this reason I think that the book is more literal than symbolic. Maybe in Fahrenheit 451 this has just gotten to an extreme level.
Viv! I understand that everyone needs to be educated. I was just explaining my point more to your previous point that our great ideas and technology are based off of imagination.
Kendall: I would like to think that someone would realize that all these awful actions are occuring, but do you think that is true? In Lord of the Flies, civilized British school boys turn on eachother. Couldn't that happen to us?
Anna - Okay thanks, fine...
Anna I can see this happening really easily. We have to ask ourselves "Will we realise that we are being consumed by technology" Will one person or one event totally open peoples eyes?
Ms. Smith,Studies show that families that eat together are more likely to stay together. This is like a present day representation of slowing down and taking in real family time.
Matthew- If governments can censor thought's, then what would be the point of living? There wouldn't be. That would be the ultimate end.
Allise: I agree with yo completley!
Whitney- There is always the possibility of this happening. However, with millions of people, over time, a few or more of them will realize what is happening and will attempt to stop it.
Matthew-The government started to censor the people's(in the Pedestrian)thoughts by a the ring in their ear. They censored how much they think and that is the first step
Vivian> No. Definitely not. We are allowed to be indivisuals and grow. In my opinion, this book was more written out of concern for society than to paralell society. Also, this was written during a time with a sedition act (law againist opposition), not today, where an elementary school banning a book will cause a court case.
Matthew- Kids do know exactly what they are doing, but just like adults, they don't realize the gravity of their actions.
matthew- even though kids cant do damage, do their voices still matter?
Ms. Smith,I think to stay sane, we need to focus on small differnces in each day, such as a different kind of lunch, walking to school instead of taking the bus.
Several of you have made good points that when information is suppressed and manipulated, it's very difficult to know what's true. But as some have pointed out, many of the books being burned in Fahrenheit 451 are works of fiction. Assume that the integrity of factual information was preserved. Would it still be bad for our society if works of fiction were destroyed? What would we lose through the destruction of books that don't "teach us facts" like non-fiction?