Class- Can someone help me understand what is happening on the bottom of page 78-79?
Class- on page 74 it infers that the people live in a cave. Would this aslo infer that the war is not real?
Class: Do you think that Faber will teach the ability to understand books to Montag? If so, how will he do this?
Class- What do you think the dog was?
Torri-Montag is trying to read and understand what is going on, but the jingle is going on in the background nd he cannot concentrate.
Class: Do you guys think that Beatty or Faber is a better role model for Montag?
Jonathan- I think that Faber will teach Montag to be able to understand and be able to think to himself.
Class- On page 73, when Montag was talking about the snake that took the drugs out of Midred's system, is he stating that Mildred tried to kill herself because of the war?
Torri- Montag is trying to understand the book but there is a commercial in the background that is causing him to lose concentration. It's a commercial for a product called Denham's Dentifrice.
Torri-Dentrifice is an old name for toothpaste if that provides any help. It is an advertisement. If that helps at all. He was trying to read but couldn't over the noise of the ad.
Johnny: I believe that Faber will teach Montag because he has finally found someone who feels the same way he does. I think that Faber has already started to teach Montag by just making Montag think deeper with what someone needs.
Class - Why does Montag start tearing the Bible when he's meeting with Faber? I know he know's it's an important book, but was he willing to rip the Bible just to get Faber to cooperate with him?
Torri- Dentifrice is another word for tooth past. It is just a commercial playing on the subway. But the annoying song is keeping Montag from understanding what he is reading.
Lauren- In my point of view, Faber seems to be a much better role model. Faber is someone who holds knowledge and uses it well, while Beatty just throws it all away.
James- The dog was just a robot dog. The book talks about how the dog was exhaling electric blue steam.
Johhny: I believe that Montag already knows how to read, but he is too afraid of the system to try and read. In the firehouse, most of the firemen were educated on the literature of old.
Lauren,They both have qualities that Montag wants. Faber likes books and such, but Beatty has the drive to push his point out there. Montag should watch both.
Avery- Maybe the Mechanical Hound?
Lauren - I don't think Faber is a better role model than Montag because right when Montag begins to realize he's unhappy, he tries to fix the problem, while Faber just stays in his house sulking and fearing the government.
Lauren--I think Beatty is a better role model for Montag because even though Beatty is on the opposite side of society as Montag, he is not afraid to turn his ideas into action and stand up for his beliefs.
Abby- I think that Montag realized that the bible was important, but he did not really know how important it really was. He thought that is was just another book that had meaning, but not enough that it was horrible to tear.
Matthew and Lauren- Faber and Beatty could be there to show different sides of life. They could help Montag make his own decision on what to do.
Abby- Montag starts tearing up the bible to get Faber to agree to help him and since it's the only existing copy in the United States it holds quite a leverage and Montag knows that.
Class,Why was Montag so intent on talking to Mildred's friends that came over?
John: I agree, but I don't think that Beatty throws it away, I think he uses the knowledge to support the government even though it may not necessarily true.
John - Please explain why you think Faber is a better role model. From the reading in the book, it didn't really seem like he used his knowledge to its best advantage.
Lauren- I think the Beatty is a better role model for Montag because he know how Montag thinks and I think that he has more sympathy towards him than Faber does. Also Beatty has the knowledge that Montag wants and he is also willing to share it with him.
Abby: I think that Montag did this because he wanted Faber to stand up for himself. Montag also wanted someone to talk to and when Faber said that he wouldn't do anything Montag thought he had found someone to talk to. But then he realized he was a coward and he didn't want him to be.
Abby: It was the only way Montag could completely capture Fabers attention. Imagine if someone had the last of your most favorite items. Would it capture your attention if someone started breaking it? And Montag wants to make Faber a stronger person. Montag's trying to build up his bravery to make him stronger.
Class--what is your initial impression of Faber? Personally, I didn't like him much because he is too afraid to stand up for his ideas and is cynical that the world will ever change.
Megan-I never thought about Beatty being a good role model that's a good way to look at it. Do you think that just following through on ones beliefs makes someone a good role model, or does what they believe play a part in that?
John - Sorry, I misunderstood the question. I thought the comparison was between Montag and Faber.
Abby- True, but he seems to be using it better than Beatty. He does not put his knowledge to his best ability, but a least he is challenging the system.
Megan: I agree with you whole heartly because Faber admits to Montag that he could have opposed this system. If a man is a coward, I would not trust him to stand up for me.
James- Yes the dog was possibly the mechanical hound, but the mechanical hound would have busted through the door.
Lauren - I don't really know if Beatty is a role model, but he's definitely someone you wouldn't want to get in a fight with. He can think on his feet and really get to you.
Megan- I feel that Faber wants his ideas to flurish but he does not want to work for it. I also agree with you.
Matthew-Montage wanted to give them a touch of reality because he was tired of listening to them talk about nonsense.
Megan,To me, he seems like the wise old "Yoda" figure, who wants to pass on his knowledge to the next generation. However, he is afraid to really trust Montag, especially since he is a fireman.
Class- When the train station was saying Denham's dentifrice and Montag said lilies of the field, why would someone say, "Call the guard"?
Megan- I know what you mean pertaining to Faber. He does not seem to be using his knowledge to his best ability, but I also think he plays a huge part in the molding of the character of Montag.
Megan- I liked Faber because I think that he represents freedom of thought, but he is too cowardly to put his words into action which is a downfall because I liked his ideas, but not his actions.
Matthew- I think that Montag was just so upset on how the women were talking about themselves and there families. After his experience with Clarisse and how her family acted with each other, Montag needed to somehow show the women what they were missing. The only problem was he did not know how so he brought out a book.
Megan - I agree with your opinion of Faber. He has the potential, the want to challenge the government, but when it comes down to it he's too much of a coward to do anything about it. Montag's pushing him into trying to reconquer the government is probably the only way Faber would have come out of the box and stood up for what he wanted.
Megan: I agree with that interpretation. But he is still braver then most of the other people in this society because he has been planning how to overthrow the system. I believe he has the ability to challenge the system and he is extremely intelligent. He just needs someone else that agrees with his cause, and that will motivate him.
Nick- Because montage had a book, the bible no less, and was going crazy waving the book around on a public train.
Nick-Maybe Montage was acting out and other were starting to think he was crazy. Kind of like calling security when someone is doing something inappropiate
Megan: I feel that he is a coward. Although he did choose to help Montag with the ear piece. I think that Montag will catch some of Faber's knowledge and Faber with catch some of Montag's confidence.
Megan- I agree with you completely. He was very cynical and it almost seemed like he didn’t want the world to change. Also this connects back to Lauren’s first question. This is why Beatty is a better role model for Montag because he is willing for the world to change.
Matthew -I do agree that Faber is quite wary to trust society and especially someone like Montag, a firemen. But I do believe that Faber is seeing something different in Montag, and feels he is different.
Avery - So you don't think the dog at the door was the mechanical hound? What if it was just sent to see if Montag was there, or what if the Hound could actually smell the books?
Nick- Montag was going insane due to the distractions around him and he started waving the book around. After other people saw it, they called the guard.
NickM> What would you do if some gibbering idiot huddled in a corner began shouting about lilies, toothpaste, and spinning? Call the insane asylum. The Pedestrian went there!
Abby- That would explain why the hound didn't like Montag.
Kimberly,I agree with your point. However, I don't think the women really grapsed what Montag was trying to tell them. It is like the expression, pearls among swine.
Class: Why did Mildred yell at Montag when he made the Bible more important than her? Her tv wall screens are more important than him aren't they?
Sean,Exactly. That is why he trusted Montag with his ear piece, that he had spent years creating.
Class:Do you think that they burned the Constitution?If so, is it because it was a history paper or was it just caught up in the on-rush?
Carl-But wouldn't the blasting commercial be annoying to everybody else, too and they might partially understand why he is goin insane.
Karyn- To Mildred, her TV screens are actual people while to both Mildred and Montag books are just paper and print.
Stephen: I don't think that they burned it, I think that over time it has just been amendded so much that it is nothing like it was before.
Karyn - I agree, but I think that Mildred lives a life of hedonism, and has the desire to be higher than everything else, in this case, the Bible.
StephenI don't think they burned it but it definitely isn't affecting anything government wise.
Stephen,It was probably burned or forgotten. When the U.S. first started, we created the Articles of Confederation. However, that didn't work with what the people wanted, so it was replaced and forgotten.
Stephen: I don't think they burned the Constitution because it didn't have an English influence. I think that they took the ideals in the Constitution and took them to extremes like everyone should be created equal. They thought that meant intelligence as well.
Megan and Sage- I completely agree with sage on this. Faber was very reserved and didn't want anything to do with montage. But the fact that he had a one of a kind book made him want to assist but not do anything. But, Beatty on the other hand is very willing to assist Montage but not admitting that he wants things to change.
Stephen- I think that they did burn it. It being a history paper probably had a huge part in the burning, but I think the main reason was that it talked about challenging the leaders.
Karyn- Mildred does not think of any other people than herself. She thinks that Montag is being selfish, even though she is too.
Stephen: I think there's a good chance that they did burn it. The constitution has caused controversy in the past and if we think back to Beaty's history lesson, all the books that disappointed a certain group of people was burned. And I do agree that it was burned because people were on a burning craze.
Whitney:Do you think America has unified the world because, if America is like this, it would present a really easy target?
Karyn- Mildred had been told by her society that books caused people to be unhappy and where the worst things someone could have. So when Montag said the Bible was better than her she was being seriously insulted.
Karyn- I believe that Mildred got angry at him because he said that the books would only stay for 24-48 hours but she couldn’t take it. She hated the books and she didn’t want to get caught. Also girls in relationships want all of the guy’s attention and so the books were taking away her spotlight.
Johnny,I agree with the Constitution bringing up controversy. It still does today. In 451, they have gotten rid of all controversy, so the Constitution would be out.
Stephen- I think that they kept the constitution as a souvenir of the government. They probably didn't destroy because it is protected by law. Plus, without the constitution, there can be no legitiment form of American Government. The Constitution is the document that grant the government the power.
Abby- I think that the mechanical hound isn't the only one of its kind. I think that since the only animals the book talks about are rabbits, there must be mechanical animals in the world. For all we know the dog could have been a runaway hound from a nearby family looking for home.
Nick-Sure, that's what we know -- and think -- now. But this is far into the future, and who knows what form of government they have.
Stephen - I don't think they burned the Constitution because Beatty referenced to it when talking to Montag in the fire house. But they definitely have twisted it to what their own interpretation off it is.
Nick M.,Or is the Constitution more of a figure-head, being controlled by a new "clergy?"
Class-the inner circle just said that people in their subconscious they know they’re not happy. Is that why Mildred cannot sleep and just lies in bed listening to her sea shells?
Avery-The mechanical hound isn't a pet. It's a deviced, used to find criminals. This is evident when Montag enters the firehouse.
Nick:I don't think that the old government really applies to the situation. And keeping it as a souvenir, I don't think people would really care enough to keep it around.
Avery - Do you think the hound, real or mechanical, could be something possibly from Clarisse or her family? Like she's trying to send him a message or something? Because I for one don't believe Clarisse is dead.
Kimberly-That's partially true. I think she's also think about how little she knows, and becuase of that, It's hard to fall asleep. You know how you always think about things before you go to bed? What if you couldn't think?
Kimberly- Good connection! I defiantly think that her not sleeping could show that she is not truly happy.
Avery- Good point, this is what I got out Faber and the comparison between him and Beatty. It’s kind of like people today with the war. Well all want to help but no of us want to be part of the violence. We all hate what’s going on but none of us want to be forced to go out and risk everything we have to protect our country.
Abby-Why would Clarisse's family give the firemen their pet?
Abby- If Clarisse isnt dead what do you think happened to her?
Kimberly - Yeah I brought that up in the inner circle because when you think about it, it really makes sense. She doesn't know what to do when her brain is at rest, when there is no action, so that's when she feels unhappy: when she sleeps.
Inner circle,Some of those weapons did save lives. If the U.S. had invaded Japan instead of the atomic bomb, many more lives on both side would have been lost.
Kimberly- I think that unhappiness plays a big part in Mildred not sleeping and just listening to seashells. But, do you think it could also have to do with her just going along with society? The seashells were probably advertised and Mildred just fell into the trap.
Kimberly- Yes, I think that is why Mildred can't sleep. She is not truely happy.
John and Kimberly,What exactly are the seashells? Are they literally seashells from a beach?
Matthew> The US had pratically already won the war! Germany gave up at that point. Plus, those cities contained many millions and millions of people who are the innocents! I doubt millions and millions of people would've been lost after that point.
Class-Earlier the inner circle was talking about the effects that the sub-concious mind has. I found a really good link about what goes on in the brain. Take a look if you get the chance. http://www.articlealley.com/article_1296843_24.html
Matthew:I know that was intended for the inner circle. I totally agree. I also think that a major veiw point that affected that decision was better them than me.
Kimberly: I think that is a motivation to Mildred's strangeness. She may act happy, but who knows that Mildred is actually happy? No one. Even she may not know that she is unhappy. People in this world might have so many parlor walls because they are unhappy, and the people in the walls are the only way to make the citizens just a tiny bit happy. I think all the other people like Mildred are unhappy, and they all might need that spark just like Montag needed.
Lauren,Remember, Montag also took a sleeping pill to fall asleep. This shows how reliant on drugs the society has become.
Class- On page 86, it says that the people cannot rush around, talk to people, and go to different cities. Does the government pack the people's lives with different things to do, so that they cannot know and understand these things?
Class- Beatty is a very smart man. What side is he really on? Sometimes Beatty actually quites passages from books. Where did he learn all that?
Matthew: That is very true but it still means that there are lives lost. Some technology can save lives and some can harm it. Like the A-bomb it saved American solider's lives but it cost many Japenese people's lives.
Ross and Abby- I don't think that the fireman's hound is the only one. There has to be more of them, like scaled down, friendlier versions. I also agree with Abby that Clarisse might not be dead, I think she's in hiding with her family in the wilderness, but I don't think that she sent Montage a message by the dog, it seems like an evil thing in Montage's view.
Class: Do you think that the government in this book is doing this for a good reason or just for control? Are they taking this power responsibly?
Abby- Remember what the book said. There was electric steam. So it had to be mechanical. Also what evidence did you see that made you believe that Clarisse was not dead?
Kimberly - I think Beatty was forced to learn all this, and he thought it was stupid or he's hiding the fact that he loves it, thus becoming a fireman
Matthew- I think that they are just technilogical seashells that were man made but produce the sounds of the sea.
Sage- thats so true!! How many Americans are willing to fight in the war today?
Kimberly-Beatty is against books and they virtues Fabre posses. Beatty could have been influenced by an outside force that made him think one way and ignore the other side.
Anna,That article talks about life and beauty in the brain, which is not in the 451 society. Could they be brainwashed, as in the creativity and beauty is washed out of their minds?
Matthew: I agree, but doesn't that just prove that the whole society is unhappy?
John,Ok. Don't they have things like that today?
Kimberly: Beatty told Montag that he has read books so that is were the quoting could come from. I think that Beatty is on the government's side because he came over to Montag's to talk about the books like he knew they were there. He told him that he had 24 hours to get rid of the books. Beatty also talked really fast when talking to Montag so Montag couldn't really grasp what he was saying and the meaning behind it.
LaurenI think at first at least they were doing it for the good of the people and didn't realise how much they were butchering the system.
James - I'm not really sure, but it seems like it could have something to do with Beatty. He's more knowledgable than most, and he knew exactly who Montag was talking about when he brought it up. What do you think happenned to her?
Lauren,The society is not happy, because they do not know what sadness is. To them, they are happy and doing fine. We only see them as unhappy because we know better than they do.
Matthew- I am not sure, but there probably are which proves Bradbury's point.
Class- Why do you think relationships have changed so drastically? When Montag asks Mildred if the "family" love her, she says that it is a silly question. Why is that?
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Avery- The Americans today aren’t willing to go and fight so I’m going to have to say that’s it is a pretty small ratio. I’m not saying that people aren’t willing but if they had the choice they would choose a different profession.
Lauren- I don't see any reason for the government to control without the people in mind, at least at first. I'm not sure if it is justified any longer but it may have been for a purpose to start with.
Lauren: I believe that the government wants control over their people. This would lead me to believe that the government does not take its power responsibly if they are just trying to control people.
Emily: I think that that's exactly what the government is trying to do. If you had a life filled with to do lists and chores, you wouldn't have time to think about what you are doing. It's like when Beatty said Clarisse asked why things happen instead of how. These people in the society don't care about why things happen, they just feel like they should get it done the fastest. I think there's an example of this in the subway where Montag tries to think about what he is reading in the busy subway. He can't think at all because of everything going on. And I think this is what the government wants life to be like in the society.
Kendall-Just because she's not that bright, doesn't mean she's dumb. She still knows that that 'family' is only on the TV.
Abby- I think what the book has implied, that Clarisse is dead, because why would the family leave their home they just moved in to?
Sage - I think the evidence to me that Clarisse was not dead was that they have always had a record of her family and the Government has been following their movements. Maybe Clarisse is dead now, but it is no accident.
Kendall- It goes back to the discussion about your subconscious, it is always active, and she know deep down that her "family" doesn't love her, and that she is unhappy.
Kendall,Relationships have degraded out of greed and selfishness. Not necessarily with material things, but with what pleases them at the moment. So, Mildred doesn't care is her "family" loves her.
James - So do you think the rest of her family is alive?
Kendall: I think it is because denying the freedom of thought deprives the people of true feelings so the relationships between people have changed in effect.
Sage- I know for one i am not going to fight in the military but other people do. Not all military positions are combat positions but those are very boring jobs, like watching a computer screen all day.
Abby- Yes but maybe they are in hiding due to what happened to Clarisse.
Sage-That is because, for the last 10 years, nothing has happened.After 9/11, the number of people joinging the military rose extremely rapidly. If something happens, (A new war, a terrorist attack, ect,) people will choose to join the military, because something happened.For example, would you rather join a sports team that has won ever state championship for the last 23 years, or one that's never won one?You'd choose the winning one, because something is happening.
Class- Did you guys just hear what Mich just said. He said that they burn books but they have never read a book so they are burning something that they have never done. What are your thoughts on this? Also why do you think so many people succumb to curiosity?
Karyn and Inner circle,Native Americans used to burn their crops (before the U.S. started). They used fire to cleanse and replenish the soil with the "corpses" or remains of the old crops. So, this society could simply be going through a natural metamorphisis.
Class: I found a good list on what a good government should have. Tell me what you think.http://www.improvementnetwork.gov.uk/imp/core/page.do?pageId=1068304
LaurenExactly it is set in the future quite a ways and the down fall had plenty of time to accelerate to extreme levels. The wars could have been a result of people who realise what is happening and have done everything possible to prevent it.
Class - In the recent reading, we learn that Montag and Faber are planning to take down the government from within. Do you think this could be the start of the downfall of the Government? Because the fact is, I don't think they think the people in general are smart or clever enough to create something so covert.
Class: Do you think that the pursuit of happiness results in turmoil in this government? Why would this happen?
Sage,A phrase comes to mind, "Don't judge a book by its cover" (literally this time, :-)). The thing is, these people don't want to change. They fear what will happen if they try it. Have we ever done this in our lives?
Sage - So many people succumb to curiousity because when someone burns a book, it automatically brings the thought of why the books are being burnt.
Abby-Only a very small amount of people have questioned it.
Stephen,The list talks about pleasing the people, and doing what is best for the people. So, is Montag the bad one in 451 if he is going against what the people want?
Lauren - I think the pursuit of happiness is the reason the government and burning books happenned. You can't make everyone in the nation perfectly happy.
Class: The inner circle just talked about what would happen if the parlor walls were taken away. I think we would also go crazy if our main technology was destroyed. We are very similar to this society.
Stephen: I think this outline is a bit advanced, we have no idea if in the future there is even a thing such as taxes. The government in this book could be based off of a different time and a different world so many variables could have changed.
Lauren: I think it depends on the person who is searching for the pursuit of happiness because if it is Faber it is books if it is Mildred it is a fourth parlor wall.
Ross- I am not disagreeing to that I’m just saying that given the choice most people would want to stay home. But you are right. Not a lot has happened since 9/11. But what happened with Haiti? The same thing everyone lent a hand so good point.
Johnny,Have you ever had your TV or video games restricted? Would you know what to do instead?
Ross - That's true, but if the people were so easy to manipulate by the government, how hard would it be for just a few "thinkers" to use those peoples' curiosity to support their cause?
Abby: The pursuit of happiness is denied in this government because they tried to make everyone happy. I don't like how that works.